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Tehelka tape,exposes desperation and acceptance of the crimes by Gujarat Govt Lawyers

Listen carefully how the team of lawyers representing Gujarat Government are talking about their failures they can be heard accepting that  “they are caught, now no one can avoid charge sheet… on the timeline 8:41 they are also talking about case, saying Supreme Court has allowed the court to file charge sheet, even if there is no FIR filed against Modi in Gulberg case…
in the end of the recorded conversation they are accepting that they have lost the case and they are in deep trouble.

Transcript of audio at 8:42 timeline…

If the court is very much adamant, “What is there, we are not supposed to be giving to you, then perhaps the court will try to follow the same formula which was you know followed in Sohrabuddin’s case, that let this report, you know, be treated as a report under 173(2) and for that purpose…

Rohit VermaVoice 2: (Interrupting) case

Kamal: Haan? Gulberg case, haan, sorry.  And let, let

: Metropolitan Magistrate

Kamal: Haan Metropolitan Magistrate with some observation that you know, say that prima facie this appears to be a so and so and so and so and therefore the matter is being sent to the Magistrate and before that let Mr. Verma prepare you know,a consolidated report which may be treated as a report under 173(2) and the matter ends there.  and therefore at that time we should argue, we should not show that judgment, we should perhaps try to argue in a very funny way which perhaps will not affect your logic, but regardless of that, (aree aa toh (this is) preliminary investigation che), this is not an inquiry contemplated, investigation contemplated under the Code, so ultimately let it be given to the Magistrate concerned, let the Magistrate concerned apply his mind. Ultimately Magistrate is empowered to do whatever is said under Section-191. He may accept it, he may not accept it, he may direct further investigation by the police under 156(3). em karine aa vastu (This way this thing)without any observations from the Court. We should challenge, Sir you can’t, you know, cast any exposure as to what should Magistrate do. What should Magistrate do is written in so many words, in black and white in the Code, let magistrate do it.

 

AUDIO TRANSCRIPT of all the tapes:

(chaos in the background)

Voice 1: Badhane bulao… khursi lao (Call everyone, get chairs)

Voice 1: Tame toh party chone aama already ek wakhat applicant thaya cho, Nirupambhai.. (You are a party you were already an applicant earlier, Nirupambhai)

Faint voice: E toh amara virudh ma hata, Bhupat bhai accused hata (He was against us, Bhupatbhai was the accused.)

Voice 1Etle tamara viruddh ma hata (So was he against you?)

Kamal Trivedi: Matter is over etle navaj karva pade have badhi charcha..kalako thi karya kariye chiye..(We will have to file a new one, we have been discussing this for the last couple of hours) Have 21 mi e je report aave (So now, whatever report comes on the 21st) Assuming for a moment ke e report apna viruddh ma che… (That the report is against us), first of all you know, we need to be represented by lawyers, every time the government will not be able to speak. This is the time where of course government will be there, but you shall have to speak at the top of your voice.

ek suchan evu che ke apde 3 vakilo rakhwa, Nirupambhai to chej, tarun bhai ne surya prakash raju represent kare, evi waat kari hashe atyare, bija vati, Nayak ne rakhwo. Have first reaction apdu evu hovu joie te vakahte, ke (One of the suggestions is that, we appoint 3 lawyers, Nirupambhai is already there, Tarunbhai will be represented by Surya Prakash Raju, I think that has been discussed, and for the rest Nayak will be representing, now our first reaction has at that time should be) that you are able to communicate with these 3 people and “I also talk (part)”.

Suppose the report is out and the Court declares that as per this report, prima facie it appears that the encounter was fake. The moment that word comes, at that time there should be an objection that perhaps, you know, we would like to be apprised of this report because you know this is a very shocking thing, and for that purpose we need some time.  Let a copy of the report be given to us, so that at least today a pointer is raised against us, we would like to at least, you know, go through and,and, and whatever  input we have would like to submit and ultimately its for the court discretion what to do.. (em karine athwadiyu ke 10 divas jaay eva prayatna karvanu)(in this manner we should be able to plead for at least a week or 10 days).

If the court is very much adamant, “What is there, we are not supposed to be giving to you, then perhaps the court will try to follow the same formula which was you know followed in Sohrabuddin’s case, that let this report, you know, be treated as a report under 173(2) and for that purpose…

Rohit VermaVoice 2: (Interrupting) Gulberg case

Kamal: Haan? Gulberg case, haan, sorry.  And let, let

: Metropolitan Magistrate

Kamal: Haan Metropolitan Magistrate with some observation that you know, say that prima facie this appears to be a so and so and so and so and therefore the matter is being sent to the Magistrate and before that let Mr. Verma prepare you know,a consolidated report which may be treated as a report under 173(2) and the matter ends there.  and therefore at that time we should argue, we should not show that judgment, we should perhaps try to argue in a very funny way which perhaps will not affect your logic, but regardless of that, (aree aa toh (this is) preliminary investigation che), this is not an inquiry contemplated, investigation contemplated under the Code, so ultimately let it be given to the Magistrate concerned, let the Magistrate concerned apply his mind. Ultimately Magistrate is empowered to do whatever is said under Section-191. He may accept it, he may not accept it, he may direct further investigation by the police under 156(3). em karine aa vastu (This way this thing)without any observations from the Court. We should challenge, Sir you can’t, you know, cast any exposure as to what should Magistrate do. What should Magistrate do is written in so many words, in black and white in the Code, let magistrate do it.

Rohit Verma: With due respect, we are also in the process of taking some sense.

Hmm..

Rohit: And one of the lawyers whom you Sir referred to, we did take his sense today.

Hmm..

Rohit: His case is, since he has been associated with him for last two years. His gut feeling is that probably the SIT is to seek for registration of an FIR. And what we have been advised is, essentially we has been legally advised is,that this is not the forum where you should ventilate your grievance in any terms, go to the Supreme Court and then see whatever happens.

Many voices: We are also thinking

Rohit: Because his apprehension is, that a Judge who should have allowed your application in April, threw you out saying that you areproposed accused, he has no locus.  He may not write certain things which will adversely affect you before the Supreme Court. That despite the fact that you were not aparty…

Kamal: Let him do whatever he wants to do.

Rohit: Yes, and infact this is the very general

Kamal: I got it, I got it.

(Many voices)

Nirupambhai/Murmu: aa tooption rakhenge (we will keep this as an opition)scenario can enhance, I have pitched that  Scenario…… ke aame report aapo nai aape toh pachi aa inquiry j  kem (that if you don’t give us the report then why should there be an inquiry) because they have not done…… so then let it go to the court, (e jo na kare to amne time aapo). (If the court does not do it, then give us time)

Kamal: Let him commit blunder, because…

Rohit: What Nirupambhai  is saying, and saying very correctly, is that the victim may not have a right or remedy available during the course of investigation, except that a victim may say that this is impartial investigation. But an accused, if at all the SIT says that yes they are all accused, has so many legal remedy, in as much as, he can go for anticipatory bail, he can challenge the order, he can go further, he may surrender himself, he may applyfor regular bail, he gets a chance toget himself discharged,so, the scope is very wide:

Kamal: The idea is that we must allow the Judge to commit as much blunder as he can.

Voice 2: pan aane  investigation ganay legal term ma? (Can this be considered as investigation in legal terms, whatever?)

Kamal & Rohit: Yes, Yes,this is an investigation

Slow voice: High court jyare…(when the High Court).

Kamal: We are trying to give,a you know, a clause to this. What follows is 173(2), as simple as that.

Rohit: The only knowledge that Mr Verma possess, (first verma ni waat nathi second verma) (I am talking about the second Verma)

Kamal: Chairman

Voice: nai. NO

Slow voice: Satish Verma …

Rohit: Given the, whatever I could gather from his writings, affidavit, this that, he has to press for a separate FIR. This is my legal understanding and I may be wrong.

Kamal: (Atyare) (now) we have the scope for the second FIR?

Rohit: Yes, Yes

Voice 3: (pan kaydeshar thae sake legal term ma Pachi kaun kare?)(Can it be done legally, and who can do it?)

Rohit: SIT karene (SIT will do it)

Voice 3: Pan pacha ke pache e loko kari sake ane investigation e loko nai kari sake(can they do it again and also conduct the investigation?)

(Many voices)

Rohit: 8/04 is a version of Crime Branch, woh yeh paksh kehta hai (they take this stand that),further investigation 8/04 mai hua who dusra paksh reveal karta hai, ki crime branch ka kehna sahi nahi hai, (what happened there reveals another side that what the Crime Branch is saying is not correct) Whatever we have gathered is.

Voice 3: Second FIR toh kab ka exists karta hai.. (exists since a long time)

Rohit:Woh isi liye, that FIR was against the four who got killed, so primarily there has to be an FIR against the police officers, be it in respect of custodial death, jo bhi unko lena ho,302 karna ho, jo karna ho. likhna ho jo karna ho job hi karna ho.. (whatever they want to write whatever they want to do)

Kamal: To my understanding, why can’t that logic apply tothis Gulbarg case? Gulbarg case what was registered initially

Sir

Kamal: was not against the 67 or 68 people

Sir

Rohit: But Gulberg case the complaint has been treated as a FIR. It is a very unique judgment

Kamal: Which complaint? Which complaint?

Rohit: The complaint of Zakia,… it goes without saying that when they say, when they say, when they say, that you have to file a report under S.173(2), that necessarily does not mean that it has to be a final report, it necessarily does not mean that it has to be a chargesheet. But when they say that, it means is that the law is set into motion. Now the law set into motion

that a report has to be filed under sec 173(2) that itself does not necessarily mean that there has to be a final report, that it necessarily does not mean that there has to be a chargesheet , it has to say that law has been set into motion, now the law has been set into motion

Kamal: without there being an FIR?

Rohit: without there being an FIR under 154, that the Supreme Court very smartly treated the complaint as an FIR that is why Zakia gets an audience, Otherwise if they treat 67/2002…Yes, yes yes, that is the law, otherwise

Kamal: That is the law, but it has to be treated as a FIR, Supreme Court should say.

Rohit: The Supreme Court will never say, because the Supreme Court very uniquely, the Supreme Court without there being an FIR. Now we are in a very peculiar situation that they are heading towards a report, it may be a Final Report, it may be a chargesheet, under 173(2) both situations are possible.

Voice2: E separate issue (che) there will be a report. (That’s a separate issue there will be a report)

Rohit: The problem with this case is

Kamal: No in this case the second FIR will be a matter of course,

Yes, yes

Rohit: Because this is a POTA FIR

Kamal: And we can’t say no to it….

Kamal: You know I don’t think ke tame aane second FIR treat karo pachi aa agency no role to khalas thai jay (If it is treated as a second FIR the role of this agency is over)

In chorous: Aa agency j karse ne.. (No the second FIR will be done by them)

……………………………………………….

Voice 4: (game em kari ne chutkaro male evo koe rasto nikle to kaho.. agency par vat avshe)(Just find a way out of this)

Voice: NIA  or CBI…

Voice 5: Already High Court had one stay

(Many voices)

Voice 4: tamaraa ma option su, su karwanu (What is the option we have)

Rohit: option to sir atiyare to 2.30 wagya ni raah jovani 21 mi e (well, just wait for 2.30 pm on the 21st of )

Kamal: As I read it correctly, perhaps you know we should allow the Judge whatever he is doing let him do.

Rohit: someone has to tell us concretely that what is there in the report..

Kamal: I am saying, I am sayingjust now, assuming for a moment, that this is this is you knowafake encounter and prima facie there are grounds to proceed against each of these people. That is the Report.

Voice 5: Koe e vanchu nathi….aa ek pan vastvikta che, ekey mahiti mali nathi)(no one has read it and that too is a reality, and there is no information.

Many voices: …printout….

Murmu: pan Atyare sudhi koina naam kari nathi. (But nobody has been named)

Kamal: to evu thay k nam nathi to FIR koni same karso (So does that mean, if there are no names, whom will the FIR be filed against?)

Muffled voices: …Sadiq Jamal…

Murmu: Atyare koina naam nathi (Nobody’s names are there yet)

Kamal: That Mukul Sinha has been insisting on FIR from Day 1.

Voice 5: Judge e dias upar thi pan kahyu tu ke ek waar tame report aavado (the Judge the other day said from the dias let the report come)                                                                                                       

Rohit: Main ek bat bolu (Should I say one thing) If you go back to the order dated 5/8/2011 where the High Court directed an inquiry, under the chair, under the leadership of the Chairman saying that,

a)  you shall inquire into this retraction

b) you shall not take assistance of any of these members for this inquiry

c) if you find proximity of anyone in getting theretraction done you shall have all the powersof arrest

d) Even in the course of investigation if you feel that you have enough evidence, to arrest, you may arrest,

And the High Court says this after taking into consideration the statements of all those people who have retracted.Still the prayer of Javed’s father for registration ofa separate FIR gets rejected. Now,

Kamal: Temporarily

Rohit: Temporarily, at this stage.Now it is not incumbent upon the High Court or for that matter this fact should be brought to the notice of the High Court by saying,

Kamal: Which fact?

Rohit: That they refused registration of an FIR

Rohit: Nai sir nai nai main aap ko kya bol raha hoo vo aap suniyie (No sir, please listen to what I have to say) , in the same order dated 5/8/2011, the High Court after noticing these are the witnesses who have given a particular statement but subsequently they have  retracted

Kamal: What are you heading towards?

Rohit: But ontwo occasions the High Court says the genuineness of the encounter is still to be ascertained.

Kamal: Right, now it is ascertained.

Rohit: But what was the material that was filed; the entire material is in their favor?

Kamal: Whose favor?

Rohit: Their favor

(Voices)

Kamal: Your operation is successful, patient is dead. You know, that, that may be in your favor, ultimately whatever proceeding you take up in the future we can take advantage of it. But what can happen on 21st ….if the report is like this, if report is like this then second FIR is a matter of course

tame mane kaho, Aapde boliye chiye kahiye chiye court ne toh su fer pade (Please tell me, we are all discussing here, the court does not really cares)

Rohit: At least court ne evu thai ke (should feel) we don’t know ke SIT e su material aapyu che high court ne (We still don’t know what the SIT has submitted to the High Court)

Kamal: You say we have been advised not to say anything. Now I am putting a question to you?

Sir

Kamal: Whatever I say, if that very thing is conveyed to the Court on 21st, what can happen? Against my assertion you say, you have been advised not to speak. I say supposing we are speaking, whatever we, I say, tamara vakilo kehse, toh su thaay(What happens if your lawyers speak). Are you not supposed to be knowing what is there in the report?

Many voices: This is notcriminal code…

Kamal: This is you know, the High Court has superimposed some agency, which is you know investigating, which is coming out with something, the least which can be done is you know, you apprise your …to what is there. I quite see accused has no right. bolo toh tamne su thaay (What can be done?)

Rohit: With the hostile mood that the court is….

Kamal: The court is already hostile, my dear friend.

Rohit: Nirupam bhai says.. he may not write certain thing…which will affect in the Supreme Court….

Kamal: What will hewrite now?

Rohit: Which will affect him in the Supreme Court

Kamal: If this report were a matter of reality I think the worst has already happened. Haan (aana thi wadhare shu thai shake?)(What can get worst than this)

ChudasmaVoice6: …………….. study karwa amte no samay toh mangij shakay? (We can ask for some time to study can’t we?)

Voice: Magvama kaen khotu nathi… (there is nothing wrong in asking)

Kamal: You are right

Rohit : (vanchvan mate no samay mangi sakay)(Time for reading can be pleaded)

Kamal: If you are an accused, you are not supposed to be doing all these things,

 

Rohit: Court (tamne ramadshe.. ha aapishu) charge sheet 4 (mahina pachi jaao, 4 mahina pachi aavjo hu tamne badha report aapish)(The court will easily play around with you, will say alright come after 4 months we will give you all the reports.)

Kamal: (Atyare kashu nahi)(Nothing at the moment)

Voice7: (Bail leva aave toh kehse investigation chalu che)(If you ask for bail, they will say the investigation is still on)

Nirupam : (Sohrabuddin ma…… kya malya che.. kahli… malya che CID na kagad nathi malya accuse ne, mangya che  ema supreme court e na padi che tame na male, e amare jovanu ke action taken report ma shu hatu tamne loka ne nai male, trial chalse e loka ne raju karvu hase toh karse)(The accused in Sohrabuddin’s case have also not received any papers, not even the ones from CID, even the Supreme Court refused, saying that, its for us to see what has been written in the action taken report, we cannot give it to you, and when the trial goes on they will produce if they wish to)

Kamal: Supposing (aapde kashu nathi karta ne court e order aapyo ke)(We don’t do anything, and the court orders)and they are now, you know allowing registration of the second FIR and this very agency is now proceeding…further to you know….

Murmu: Actually sahib (aama na thay Ek line ma)(That cannot happen. In one line we should protest that Sohrabuddin (ma hazar)(have been present)173(8) (ma j thaya che…aama pan hazar 173(8) ma aa loka na aapi shakta ta, ena ma aa loko e ………….. kary)(under 173(8) they could be given so can we) investigation, now they have to file a chargesheet.

Under the second FIR, entire thing is preliminary enquiry ….. if you are to do (karan ema tame 173 (8) karo toh tame ene preliminary gano pachi)(Because if you do it under 173(8) then you consider it as preliminary)

Rohit : Since last one year SIT is investigating the case

Kamal: FIR (badalva jay che)(going for a change) (laughing)

Vocie: (aama second FIR karva jay to aa preliminary gano pachi )(If you consider a second FIR consider it as preliminary)

Many voices

G.S. Singhal:Hindi speaking: Agar is ko preliminary ginenge to,otherwise what happened (ki )they will think later on stage par ki humko investigation karna hai. Hame toh abhi isko investigation pakad ke hi chalna hai, ki since last 4 years…(if we count this as preliminary, then otherwise what will happen they will think at a later stage, that they have to investigate this. We have to hold on to this as the investigation. Since the last 4 years,

Voices…

GS Singhal Hindi Voice: Then further investigation ka scope nahi rahega unke paas.. (then since last four years(since last 4 years, they will not have any scope for investigation)

Voices: Haan

Murmu: then there is no new FIR, you have already done investigation …..how can you do new FIR, no new FIR (nahi kar sakte new FIR)(Cannot do a new one)

GS SinghaHindi Voice: Jo bhi material available hai tum yahan rakh do, further investugation

Kamal: (tumhari charge sheet ke ander)(In your chargesheet

Rohit: (unclear voices and too much chaos)(let them charge sheet ke anderjo bhi material available hai who rakhdo)(just let them put whatever material is available in the chargesheet) further investigation is not …

Murmu: (new FIR to aap nahi kar sakte)(You cant do a new FIR)

Hindi Voice: (Kya hai charge sheet ke liye)(whats in the charge sheet) because all accused have been…so for accused… charge sheet

Kamal: (navu investigation shu karvana hamna ??) (what will they do with the new investigation

Murmu : (na kari sake, tame ene sabit karo cho..)(They cant do it let them prove it)

Kamal: (na na shu karvana)(No why for what ?)

Murmu: (Tame aane tapas gano cho toh 2nd FIR kevi rite karsho)(If you consider this as an investigation , then where does the question of second FIR arise)then you have to reinvestigate, (hare k witness na jawab leso ena FIR niche athva to …., have to file karo FIR)(you will take the statements of the witnesses etc etc)

Kamal: (aa argu karvani jarur che khari ama)?(Is it necessary to argue this)Final issue,

Murmu: 2nd FIR (na the sake)(2nd FIR cannot be done)

Rohit: talk to me, as such there is no decision, we don’t, wealso have to wait to till 2.30

Kamal : no no 2.30 this have follow

Voice: (apne alternative vicharvanu)(You think of an alternative)

Kamal :Han, We should be ready

Rohit : alternative (to1,2,3,4,.. vicharvanu to vichariye j chiye)(1,2,3,4 what can be the option we are thinking)

Murmu : (aa thay to ne aam karvanu aam karvanu…)(if this happenes this should be done, if that happens this should be done)

Kamal: (Apne emathi options shu nikali sakay ane best options male ene adopt karvu)(Whatever options we can come up with, lets adopt the best one)

AK SHARMA IG GANDHINAGAR Vocie (slow): (manilo ke High Court order kare ke …..to pachi tatkalik sarkari nokri mathi time ni mangni karvi pale)(suppose if the high court orders, we will have to immediately ask for time form government service)  to with prosecution …time ni mangni karvi….to with prosecution ….e loko  apse ke nai(will they giver or no?)

..Sheno sheno???(about what?)

Murmu: oprate karva mate amne time apso ame ……..karvani che(can you give us time to operate)

Kamal: State is a prosecuting agency, yaar, we, I cannot say. They may not like to say. Or if they say, they are not to be heard, they are accused. The matter ends

Rohit: yaar us din hum log is court main Supreme Court main 11 tarikh ko gaye aur supreme court main baithe,sunvai hui, supreme court main un logon ye bola ke kal High court main matter hai, supreme court ne ye bola ke thik hai high court ka application withdraw karke 13 tarikh ko hamare pas aao, 12 ko withdraw nahi karne de rahe the vo.(the other day we were at the Supreme Court on the 11th the  the SC heard us, where we got to know that the matter in the high court, the SC said alright, go to the HC withdraw the High Court application and come on the 13th, and on the 12th we were not allowed to withdraw)

Kamal: Kaun nahi karne de rahe the…(who did not allow?)

Rohit: the judges

Kamal : kaya(which) Judges

Rohit and otherone: Nirupam,  tran panano order kariyo che withdrawal no(Nirupam, a 3 page order of withdrawl was ordered)

Kamal :court wants  their observation

Rohit: per sir (but sir)  you should have conveyed ke kale supreme court ma matter che (that there is a matter in the SC tomorrow) this matter  are not ….

Kamal: Judges wanted to have details, (ane problem Nirupam bhai no junior kaen paper beper laene aao )(if nirupambhai’s junior gets papers)..Judge wanted to see the attested copy…that’s all..for that the matter was delayed….attested copy…that’s why judge became a doubting Thomas, he became suspicious that its something fishy. He was insisting copy lao, copy lao, copy lao (get the copy)

Murmu: (to apne tran (3) manas ne rakhiye)(so we keep three people) I think (try kariye em biju shun, trane janne, kaen jrur nathi..)(lets try and see what happens)

Rohit : tame at least  ek kam karone (you do one thing). We’ll have to settle it  after talking to Nirupam bhai. He has been in in this matter for last 2 years as far as he is  concerned…

Murmu:(ena mate to barabar eto chalu j che, bija… ) other 14(that’s fine with him, and the rest ? how many are there)

Rohit: other 14 (ke liye bhi to vohi) 1 + 14(he will be there for the other 14 as well)

Murmu: Achha (ohh 1 + 14 hai to) then there is no question (…..pachi to vat nahi thai sake, mane lagu ke ekla gaya hata)(Alright its for 1+14 , then we cannot say, I was under the impression he had gone for just one)

Rohit : nai nai CBI mangne to 14 admi gaye the, 15 admi gaye the (CBI had gone for 14 persons-15 persons)

Voice : to pati gayu, have to tame 2nd manaso ne nahi lae sako (So now its been decided we cannot take other men)

Kamal:   mero ko bhi ….

Rohit: that is to even impression hai ke that is to him (2 sal se hamare pas hai to hai)(Its been with us for 2 years)

Kamal :Nai nai idea is not

Murmu: tame last minute ma ene kadhi nai sako ….have to (You cannot tell him at the last minute)

Kamal : hathodi ne maro, tame maro, hun maru em jayne ander ghuse ena jevu che aa (this is like anyone can come and hammer around) idea is not to belittle anybody, idea is to see that ……

Voice: All these people are thinking suppose Niru bhai (ekvar  argukari nakhe)(let him argue once)

Kamal: We weretrying to arrange a meeting at Nirubhai’s place, (ane jo Rajubhai ane bharatbhai bhega thata hoy to tyan bhega kariye ane Nirubhai purepura kahide…….pachi rajubhai batave,, ane pachi bharat bhai batave.). that was the  understanding.(we call Rajubhai, bharatbhai and we discuss all together) That was the understanding, Nirupam is in the drivers seat.

Voice: nirpam sivay nahi, nirupam sivay bakina badha (everyone apart from Nirupam)

Kamal: na na already represent

Voice: already represent apne tyanthi koe …..na thaya hoy to (what is if someone has not been represented)

AK Voice:  pachi apne tyan stay ni mangni karvi joeye tatkalik, opration ma gaya hovathi nahi avi sake (we can ask for a stay, and say that we had gone for a immediate operation and hence could not be presented)

Kamal: mangi j na sako shu mangi sako ha ha ha (You can’t ask)

Voice: Gujarati

Kamal : No, I think let them decide. Perhaps I may not be able to, you know, give any mind of mine because you have to take a call on that. I thought that, you know, we are trying to find out some joint strategy. This is unique case where the government wants to help youout. Atleast, whatever maybe,you are a witness to it.. So far, so far in the court the government has spoken, nobody else has spoken. So, so, so, idea is to see that if we can work out joint strategy, ..something to help you.

Voices: (Interruption)

Kamal: Why should I break my head? As simple as that. I am not supposed to be speaking a single word. On the contrary I should see that you should be you know, immediately second FIR should be registered, you should be arrested. That’s the, that’s the voice of a real prosecutor.

Apde toh vichariye chiye ke aa badha mitron ne taklif na thavi joie, tame jetlu malta haso etlu amne pan  malva ave che aa..ha (the intention is that these friends do not suffer, because they are also troubled and so are we)

Tarun Barot: pan pela panch cha (5-6) encounter kyan ……(what about those 5-6encounter)

AG: Chinta nahin kare

AK Sharma: Actually 2G , .. court represented..

Kamal: I am not supposed to take care of their….

Kamal: No, it gives a pain, something wrong has happened.

Murmu:  Aap kya ….CBI ma ene accused karvu ke na karvu to ene ….…..supreme court ma ena vakil tyan ubha kevi rite karshe…(how can we find lawyers who will argue whether the CBI can accuse them or not)

Voice: supreme court e bahdu chale, badhu seting hoy ne, ke pachi, kaydo to ek hoy ne setting hoy ke nahoy(Well there is a lot of setting in the Supreme Court, then the law is on one side and setting on the other)

Kamal: Jo ana ander tame koh cho aa second FIR gulbarg na case ma mara dhyan ma toh nathi aavi, second FIR vagar magistrate 173 (2) ni ape to kevu kehvay, (I don’t remember that there was a second FIR in the Gulbarg matter, then without an FIR the magistrate gave 173(2)) Something unusual, you are re writing Criminal Procedure Code.

Voice: Question is, question is difficult, (emna mate pan mushkil che..) it is not easy(its difficult for them as well)

Kamal: No but I think, I think, take a call, (nirupambhai jode nakki karine)(decide along with Nirupambhai) whatever best, you know is to happen we should try, that’s all. By not speaking if we are trying to invite a better atmosphere for the future we should not speak, I agree with you. But by speaking something,we are likely to avoid something we should say that. I mean let us not treat this as purely a criminal matter because this has got different facets.(Etle pelo adu avdu lakhi neshu shu lakhi shake..)(what will he (judge) try to manipulate) I can’t think, (atlu lakhi shake, tame mango cho ne atyare)(he can write what you are asking at them moment), charge sheet file (karo pachi avsho atlu lakhi shake).(come after the chargesheet is filed at the most he can write this) Even otherwise that’s a settled law, (ena lakhwa thi kaen bou fair nathi padto)(see, his writing is not going to make a huge difference)

Voice/AK SHARMA: (Pan aa je agency badalwa mate Gujarat Sarkar nahi kai shake)(Can’t the government of Gujarat ask for a change of the agency)

Kamal Voice: agency nai badlay.(No the agency cannot be changed)

Kamal:  How can I say..(shu ke Gujarat sarkar?em ke k aa agency…(what will the Governement of Gujarat say?)

Voice :………Preliminary inquiry should not be conducted

Voice: preliminary …..Investigation same agency should not be conducting the investigation…..

Voice: what…no

Rohit : Meanwhile inquiry main chale gaye to phir kya hota hai…..investigation main fas jayenge fir…again one year, ek saal aur investigation chala. Hamen to effort yeh hi karna hai, yahi kar sakte hain ki since last one year this investigation is carried out. Now investigation has been concluded and investigation has come to the conclusion that this is a fake encounterto………whoever responsible….chargesheet may be filed, no further investigation. Inka intention yehi ha

Kamal: They are right to an certain extent, (ke aane jetlo gotalo karvo hoy etlo karedo)(that let him commit as many blunders as he can)…………Supreme court (ma jayne kahiye k sahib juvokevu gandpan karyun, ek varshe aa investigation chalayu, now em keh che ke second FIR karo ane preliminary inquiry karo)(we go to the SC and say, look sir we have done this foolishness, this investigation went on for a year, and say order to file a second FIR and conduct preliminary inquiry)..let chargesheet follow we are prepared.

AK Sharma Voice: (phir kya hai sir, preliminary inquiry karenge to ek saal aur investigation kar rahi hai)(the investigation has been going on for a year)

Rohit: … people not 1 and 2, (22 toh FIR ma naam che)(there are 22 names in the FIR)

Kamal: I was the only person who has been requesting you people from day 1, (karavdavo tamari committee pase karavdavo…..)(let your committee do it)[1]

Muffled voices…barabar che….like that (that’s right)

Singhal Voice: Worst situation (ma ek tarafthi e kahi shakai ke ek varash thi aa investigation chali rahyu che)(we can say that this investigation is going for year) and they had come to a certain conclusion, so investigation ends here, let it be directed for the chargesheet to be filed.

Chorus: (Je bhi report file thay)(whatever the report be)it is upon the concerned court

Voice: Charge sheet file (tyar pachi arrest karshe)?(will they be arrested?)

Voice :(maru kehvathi kasu fark nahi pale, hun kahish…)charge sheet kari sakay…(nothing will happen if I say anything, I will say, chargesheet can be done)

Kamal: (Haa pan su purava che?)(what is the evidence?)

Rohit: Sohrabuddin is an example.there was a FIR filed against Sohrabuddin, chargesheet was filed by CID there was no FIR …10 FIR (sohrabuddin main bhi hai)(even in Sohrabuddin)

Voice : but (aa kissa ma tapas aa loko pase rahi che)(now the investigation is with them) that is the problem….it will tell k ok…FIR should be continue …….

Kamal: No,(Pachi chargesheet file thaya pachi su arth)(if the chargesheet is filed what is the purpose)..Investigation over…

28minutes

 

Rohit : If they file a report saying (ke 173(8) ma kai kaarvu che)(should there be anything done under 173(8)The only good thing of this one year has been kethe factum of the 4having links with terror organization (e loko aama aavi gaya chiye,) (they have been brought under this, according to Nirupambhai. Nirupambhai says 50% of the matter is won (biji 50 % joishu)(the rest of the 50% will figure out)

Kamal: 50% is won in what way?

Rohit: To say that innocent died, now it isimpossible for even this SIT to write. To say that they were some mischief.. (aam tem je bhi hoy, hearsay je kaen bi hoy)(whatever it is, it could be hearsay)

Kamal: SIT (kashu kehsej nahi, SIT e badha ma jashej nahi .. SIT kehse ke aa aa)(the SIT will not get into all that) itsfake encounter, matter ends.

Rohit: (eme 3 aspect tapaswama lidha che) (They have taken 3 aspect for investigation). First FIR contents of  8/04, is whether they were associated with terrorist outfits or not.

Kamal: (ema shu kahiyu, Etle shu kehse?)(what is said?)

Singhal: (etle 3 aspect tapaswana kidha hata, aa loko e e aspect tapasi lidho 2004 ma je investigation thayu tu)( they were to investigate three aspects which they had already finished in 2004) same has been reiterated in 2011 also. whatever statement  have recorded,

Kamal: that they have links with terrorist organization

Voice: (haa emne eto kehvu padse)(they will have to say that).2nd  aspect(aapyu tu ke tamam e jeobservations aapya che e tame batao, ema ek to) (from the observation point) rigor  mortis,  semi digested food, entry and exit wound mark of injury sustained.. (etle e  je)FSL (no report thi e loko kari aapshe)(that will be done through the FSL report)

Kamal : ……action (khoto tharse)(will be wrong)

Voice: and 3rd whether it is a genuine or fake

Kamal :(ema em kehse)(they will say) read by what it its appears….

Voice: its appears (etleaa 3 aspect par tapas karwani che ane e loko e 3 aspect par j report aapse). (three aspects have to be investigated and a report to be submitted)

Kamal:  I think the best thing is you know, to keep a mum

Murmu Voice : something for communicating ……(tame mane kehso mara kehvathi ke amna kehvathi fark padse ke nahi)(it will make no difference if anyone says anything)

Rohit: Sir basically (fark amne….emne je dar che.. ke je damages thaya che, aa ek varas thi bou)(see the fear is that there has been a lot of damage done in this last one year) and damage control (kari rakhyo che, ek varas ma emne kehvay ke).(past one year a lot of damage control has also been done) .success rate (e loko e 300 statements lidha ane eam thi 2 statements against ma padya,(the success is that, they took 300 statements, and  298 statements consistent)  5 baar bolaya, 8 baar bolaya 10 baar bolaya. Ek aj rahya statement have pachi  kadach manilo ke e loko ne investigation further karvano chance aape, FIR register thay toh thoda manaso rattle thay barabar che, atyar sudhi toh confidence built che e loko no, succeeding  e loko sathejrehse, temperament etloj high che ane kadach enathi vadhelo pan che, pan point of a time kadach change thai shake, toh ek vakhat option jo khullo padi gayo toh pachu aavu tya thi mushkil  che)(they were called 5times, 8 times, 10 times the statements remained the same, if they get a chance for further investigation, and the FIR is registered, people will be rattled, till now the confidence is built, the temperament is very high and it could also increase, but at a given time anything can change, but if the option is opened up the point of return will be tough)

Kamal: As you know, Justice Patel, and he knows better, once he has decided, which he has already decided and we try to stall this registration of FIR. Mukul Sinha every time has said like that, every time  I said that Sir (haju aava toh do)(let it come), I say why, we can’t put, you know, cart before the horse.  (Ene Sambhadya vagar).. (with out listening) We’ll see wait, wait, wait, we have not negated his right. Supposing on Monday the report is like this, then to stall the registration of the FIR…

Murmu: Let me tell you because we said this way….because (kadachaa loko tapas karta karta tapas karva kidhu hase…atiyare to..168 na badha nivedan 173 (8) mujab lai lidha che.. Now conclusion is only chargesheet  karanke…ek ne ne ek ne bija ma use nahi kari sako..nava FIR karo enama nahi thay…)(well if the investigation is ordered, at the moment all the statements under 164 have been taken as per 173(8) so ultimately the conclusion is chargesheet)

Voice: is it 173 (8) investigation

Rohit: This man is now getting after the experts, …haan(ane etli chelli quality na e loko na communication thaya che aras paras, ane aa kadach e loko nej nullify karse  etle pachi)(the communication between them have been of the a very bad quality which could nullify them) ultimately CFSL… (ene todwana prayas etle aa anxiety che.. bhale pachi cho ne charge sheet thatu dekha jayega..)(this is an anxiety, we will see what happens after chargesheet is filed)

Voice :investigation 173 (8) investigation

Murmu: Shouting

Kamal: We should read this judgment

Kamal: (tame aa tapas karine kahi shako ke Gulbarg na case ma second FIR hati)(can you investigate and say that there was a second FIR in the Gulbarg case)

Voice : na..na(no)

Voice: What they have done is that they have admittedthat the complaint

Kamal: I do not find in any of the judgments of Gulbarg case, about the reference of a second FIR , they have come straight away, let High Court follow this.. Can’t we say that? No I am looking forward to you

Murmu: Sohrabuddin is the best example……(ama a loko e charge sheet kari…CBI further karse….kayda jovu palshe …ek ma settled certain provision)(they have filed a charge sheet, CBI will further do it, we will have to look at the law, for some settled certain provisions.)

Voice : fake FIR was running, despite of that 10 investigation is going on is …….(apne kehvu palshe ne)(we will have to say)

Rohit: (ema shu karshe hun aap ne kahun) (I will tell you what he will do) has to reach a lot of conflicting evidence,

Kamal: I know Mr Rohit ..you let me know what line of investigation ………(Kashu bolya vagar je gotala kare karva do)(just let him commit blunders without we saying anything)

Rohit: (Aa lokana perspective thi)(as per these people’s perspective) this is the best option available

Kamal: I also should not speak anything, these are thoughts… and whatever I speak should be in consonance with the sovereign government otherwise…….. will be booked, (evu na thavu joie, mari argument toh kach kachai ne reject kare)(that should not happen, he can reject my argument vehemently)that should not cause damage to us.

Voice: Sir, woh 178 investigation the SIT has come to the conclusion and the report has been filed to the concerned court

Kamal: Then I need to show an authority that without their being a second  FIR investigation..report…

Rohit: you know what justice Patel has written

Kamal: Who said?

Rohit: Justice Patel has himself said

Kamal: no no justice Patel is still about to give the direction of the registration of second FIR, (e toh Mukul sinha keh j che, hun keh  che)(mukul Sinha has been saying this) , anyway, whatever you submit let me know, it should not be a lousy submission, (evu na lagvu joie ke sarkar should be ridiculed)(it (submission)should not appear to be ridiculing the government.

Rohit: (Ek prevention evu thai ke have further investigation nathi thava devu)(one prevention that can be done that there should be no further investigation)

Kamal: Charge sheetkarawamate… (ek varas thai gayu) (it took a year to file a charge sheet)

Rohit: Charge sheet file thaay je thay e POTA court ma  kare thai.(well whatever happens this should go to the POTA court). last time he  had indicated the same thing that ultimately all this will go to the POTA court, we will get an audience there,

Kamal: He doesn’t have the background of criminal law he is beating around the bush. Ultimately second FIR aavse (will come)

Chaos: (ek presumption …ene further investigation nathi thava devu)(doesn’t want a further investigation) government has said this fake encounter….said that…investigation going on ……..file a report…..and show that where is the accused….they have arrested….panch (5) manasone arrested…..pehla je charge sheet kari emna ter (13) manasona te 173 (8) vali je ma)(they have arrested 5 persons and later 13 under the 173(8) inquiry.

Kamal: Forget for a while (aa Gulbarg ni andar kya second FIR aavi, nathi)(there has been no second FIR in the Gulbarg’s case)? (Shruat ni pehli FIR , FIR ma je kai naamo hashe police e je kareli hase e… barabar che)(in the first FIR, the names police has taken they could be the one) then that was taken into a trial, in the mean time this lady was trying you know.. (ke mari a treat kari ne tame)(treat this of mine (this lady Zakia tried to convince that treat mine complaint)(this is interpretation)…this people did not do it….they moved to the court, Justice MB Shah said  no we can’t do it, they went to the Supreme Court. Justice Pasayat entertained them, let see come and  then taufiq came  and recorded the statement, and the last judgment says we have done enough surveillance,we don’t want to do anything further  now let them file a final report under 173(2) before the Magistrate.

Rohit:  Sir this option is more feasible, we get some time

Kamal: My dear friend, I am trying to know from you what should I do, these are two supporting judgments.

Rohit: (aa che ne 2 supporting judgment che)(these are the two supporting judgment)…………. Tell them to file a report there let them do what they want to do, whether they want to file a closure, they want to file a charge sheet, (je emne karvu hoy e POTA court ma karwado),(whatever has to be done let the POTA court decide)In exercise your power, give them right to an audience, investigation (nai thavu joie ane further investigation to thavuj na joie)(there should just be no further investigation) this man can…

Kamal: I, I can’t with, with a lot of intensity say that there should not be further investigation , I think this is the provision of law and perhaps the right thing to do is that let them, let them file a final report.

Rohit:  as it is we are not to get a  We are not to get an audience before the POTA court, Audience will be with the SIT and victims.

Voice: (jo navi FIR che karawano its means irado pakko che hoy toh aapde aaj line upar jaie ane lower court ma report submit kare)(well if they are sure about filing the FIR then we submit a report to the lower court) bijo koi option nathi.(there is no other option)

Patel : Our line

Kamal: (Emne 2 wastu karavi che) (There are two things), see Mukul Sinha is in league with Satish Sharma ,(emu evu che.. ke 2 FIR thaay,  aa loko nu arrest thay investigation further thay ane jetla victims)(well that’s what they want  that the second FIR is filed, these people are arrested there is further investigation)real investigation they.(That there is a real investigation)I have to hang them

Rohit: Ane ena pachi rokawanu nai, charge sheet thya pach  aa barabar thayu nahi etle fari pachi, rokawanu to nathij . Amara mate toh (further investigation has to stop otherwise court no to chaltu rehshe a ate aa te)(they don’t stop there, they will insist on a charge sheet, then if they are not satisfied they will ask for further, well as far as we are concerned the investigation has to stop the court can go on and on )

Hamara…this investigation has to stop otherwise…

POTA… Supreme Court

39.21

Rohit : The moment they file a report in the POTA court, the ball is in our court . Then we have…we have  to somehow push, we have to somehow push this SIT into the POTA court.Aap utna kar dijiye sir, baki toh itne point hai na sir, POTA court na cognizance le paaigi, na kuch kar payegi, aise hi nikelte rahega 2 baras, 4 baras, 5 baras. Itne legal complications hai. Yeh investigation bandh hona chaahiye bas. Cite this example sir, that it has been virtually monitored and if there is a report that they have to file,  file the report before the appropriate court, …(sir you just get this much done, rest there are several points that the POTA court will not be able to take cognizance, and it will go on for 2 years 4 years, sir this investigation has to stop)

Murmu: What is the appropriate Court?

Rohit: POTA court, before thePOTA court.

AK : Appropriate Court is POTA Court.

Voices

Murmu:… Technical point is where the Court has taken cognizance earlier as well

Rohit: Then there will be 1000 complications

Kamal: I have limited role to play

Voices: ….second cognizance….But …complications

Kamal:  But let us not, let us not under estimate Justice Patel, despite my argument having recorded, he has just to reject and say that this is a case of registration of second FIR , I hereby direct that…

Rohit: Then let him do it, let him do it.

AK SHarma: We can go to the Supreme Court and say we have not been represented properly

Kamal: How can you get the audience before Supreme Court when the audience was not available 2 years

Rohit: Leave was granted to us.  In our application for Grant of Leave we will cite our SLP was dismissed, we have not withdrawn it, we got it dismissed, Leave was granted. So we will cite, we will say, we have been granted Leave, grant us Leave once more.

Voice:  We were told you can come back again whenever you have…

Rohit: Yes and this is what they had said

Rohit: Justice Reddy is now not available……but Justice Nijjar had

Kamal: Justice Reddy is not there. You’ve got

Rohit: Nijjar

Kamal: …

Rohit: He presently sits with probably Altamas Kabir .

Kamal: Ranjana Desai…..

Rohit: Nahin  Ranjana Desai to Aftab Alam hai

Voices

Rohit: Altamas Kabir, Cyriac Josep and Justice Nijjar these 3 decide the Bench.

Kamal:Altamas Kabir, Nijjar ane Cyriac Josep

Rohit: Continuation of investigation is a problem, otherwise report they can file

Kamal:  I know, I know, lets see. Ah ah..Government has you know its constraints.

Rohit: Our people have passed the narco analysis test also

Kamal: Sorry. Achha

Rohit: Us se zyada toh ham kya karen..(what more can be done)

AK Sharma They have been thoroughly interrogated

Rohit: Thoroughly interrogated. people are tired now.

Kamal: You, you, you must commend that the government also, has been has been seriously you know helping. tame tya betha ta ne nikdigaya khyal na aayo amne(internal discussion commenting on someone shifting his place) we are discussing all pros and cons..I agree, I agree.

Voices

42:47: Prafull Patel –  shakya etli tamame tamam koshish kari… (i have helped in all possible manner)

in between

Kamal T intervenes… You have a Law minister, Home minister all sitting…

Voices

43:01: (prafull patel speaks) men Tamara satish verma ne mara bungale… jokhame… ene kahyu hatu ke tare lakhavu hoy tho lakhaje… chaar kallak… (supported by Pradipsinh Jadeja) ratre pona be vage mara gher thee mokalyo hato… aa chokarao maate… aa 18 jana mate tu biju knai na kari shake tho knai nahee… police beda man… aa maara vakhat ni ghatna nathee pan hun icchu chuu kea a thay.. ane tara haathe thay… chaar kallak aava manas saathe… rajya nag rah mantra tarike mare eni saathe vaat karavi ne… aam record laine… ane rajya sarkar ni jawabdari no hisso che em samaji ne karyu…  ( I had called up Satish Verma to my house… despite knowing the dangers of it… had spoken to him for more than 4 hours and had told them to help these 18 persons… and if that happens by you… it will be a big thing…)

43:40 Kamal: Amit bhai has been constantly following…

Voices

Phone rings

Someone is dialing the phone

47: 42

(The CONVERSATION after this iswith reference to Mohan Jha, IPS officer a member of the SIT – partisan to Gujarat state. They are discussing Mohan Jha. Kmal T talks of calling Mohan Jha to his chamber in the presence of Murmu and advising him to retire from the SIT.)

Kamal: On what basis they may come, if at all they may come, that it is a fake encounter ? What basis?

Rohit: This could be witness of the member the SIT…(very faint). His case is, ki woh to bolenge hi, to merebolne na bolne se kya matlab padta hai(they will say sowhether I say or don’t say what difference is it going to make) This is the problem.

Voices

Kamal: mai ene kidhu tu(I told him) Waat kari mai(I spoke to him)I advised him to, you know, retire, that’s what Murmu.. hai  ne Murmu ?(right Murmu?)… Besharmi  kehway,If at all demotion Kari nakhe e pehla tamare nikdi javu joie (this is nothing but shamelessness, its better to retire before they demote you)

Voice

Rohit: He very happily took up the assignment …will work in the SIT.. and very happily..

Kamal: I had called in my chamber, I told him resign.. (he said) haan sir mai kar deta hoon.(Yes sir I will do it). This is a humiliation, insult to you

Voice: Humiliation ki kya padi hai. Pahle jab shuruat thi(Right from the beginning)  he could have taken, he being the senior most

Rohit: Uska  aisa kehna hai  post investigation main madad karoonga, mai report lelunga toh mujhe nikal denge, phir madad karne wala kaun.. (He says that if he helps in post investigation, and take the report, they will throw me out, then who will be there to assist you)

Murmu:  Chargesheet pachi su madad karega. Bewakoof samjhe che ( after the charge sheet what will he help for. Thinks we are fools) Hahahaha. Ena pachi kai role nat (there is no role after that)

Rohit: Nahin nahin  Woh toh sooch ke bethe hai ki abhi to aur investigation karenge hum milke teenon. (They are thinking that the three of them will conduct further investigation.)

Voices

49:39

Voice: Number kya?  8527

Kamal : 87

Voice: Haan 87511

Kamal: 875811… aam thi aavaj nathi aavto (there is no sound coming from this)

Voice:  loko tya thi nikdi na gaya hoy airport thi (I hope they have not left from the airport)

Kamal:  Aa mobile che?(is this a mobile)

Voice: Aa Mobile che? (Yes it’s a mobile)

Kamal: Ohhh. No tone?

Voice : ….Modi bhai ne Delhi nikadwana hata..(Was to leave for delhi) Then they will not be contactable

Kamal: He wanted to talk.

Voice: Gujarat Bhavan lagao. Gujarat Bhavan

 

Voices

Phone call:

Kamal speaking on phone: Haan …Haan jaldi jaldi jaldi. Haan…. Nahin nahin

Kamal: Gaikale(Yesterday)

 

Kamal: Emnu kehwanu evu che ke preliminary inquiry kari ne badhu magistrate pase jatu rahe. (He was of the opinion that this should be treated as preliminary inquiry that ultimately goes to the magistrate) The idea was to see that we help the situationThis has to be conveyed to him we don’t want any further investigation.

Voices

Voice: Inquiry karse pachi toh he will do it under 173(8), (If he does the investigation he will do it under 173(8))

Voice: Ena pachi FIR will be filed (FIR will be later filed)

Voices

Kamal: Nevertheless if anything a a a.. meaningful is to be conveyed, let me know by tomorrow.

Voices

Kamal: I must have come across umpteen number of people who know you,  who know me… have as if they have anything against you…

Voice : madad karni chhaiye…

Laughs


[1] Here the AG, Kamal Trivedi is referring to the Monitoring Force set up by the Gujarat govt to look into all the alleged encounters. AG tried very hard to have this case also diverted to that Committee. J.Patel did not agree, This finds mention in the judgment of Gujarat High Court of 1st December 2011.
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